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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 1/28/2009
Posts: 30
Points: 90
Location: St. Cloud
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Currently S.F. 2484 has been referred to the Environment and Natural Resource Committee He's a link to the members of the committee http://www.senate.leg.state.mn.us/committees/committee_bio.php?cmte... Dave
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 8/12/2009
Posts: 32
Points: -1
Location: Waite Park, MN
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I emailed my local rep, Steve Gottwalt, today.
I wonder if we could invite a legislator to our meeting, so they can become familiarized with the story, plus allow us to understand the legislative process more?
If it's too much for a meeting, how about to the dinner, or join us to speak w/folks before the meeting during the social time?
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Rank: Administration
Groups: Administration
, Member
Joined: 1/22/2009
Posts: 36
Points: -1,538
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Thanks Aaron,
It is great that you guys, Bemidji Chapter, are giving away a 9 foot rod - wow!
I will be sure to contact each of those folks and express my views
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 2/10/2009
Posts: 125
Points: 375
Location: Stillwater
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I think having a guest like John Underhill would be better than having a State Rep come - haven't had the pleasure of meeting John personally yet but I know he's our guy that does most of the work at the Capitol and knows how the process works. It would also be nice to hear him talk about the MMA and things like that, not the Carl can't handle that, but I think John would be a good guest sometime if he is willing.
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/19/2009
Posts: 117
Points: 160
Location: the lake
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I'm one step ahead of ya, Marc! John Underhill is scheduled to speak at our meeting in April.
John is very active in the MMA and everything that has anything to do with muskies in MN. He's been involved with the DNR and the politicians throughout many of the processes in our muskie management efforts.
Cyberfish- Actually contacting our local reps. is a very good idea. We discussed that some at the last MMA meeting. It's something we should definitely make a move on, especially regarding our new lake stocking efforts. Again, this is an area I have very little experience in, so anyone who knows the right avenues- jump in!
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 2/10/2009
Posts: 125
Points: 375
Location: Stillwater
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That's excellent - I'll look forward to April.
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Rank: Pike
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/6/2009
Posts: 8
Points: 24
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HI Dave, we have been doing real good. Been slower at work, but we are hanging in there and hope to pull through stronger. Kids and house keeping us busy, not to mention we are renting other house out due to not being able to sell.
Paul
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/19/2009
Posts: 117
Points: 160
Location: the lake
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I went to the meeting in Cass Lake the other night. I think most of us "muskie guys" expected more of a whole town meeting type of situation. Instead, it was the 3 leaders of the CLIFS organization having a meeting that seemed to be intended more to just get their members together. There wasn't really a meeting agenda, and they just seemed to be looking to talk about the situation among themselves a little. -There were 2 or 3 sheriffs present in the room! ..LOL!
Funny- I didn't count, but I think there were more muskie guys than spearers!
We really didn't come in "guns blazin". For the most part the muskie guys were pretty quiet, and just listened to get a better feel for what's going on.
Discussion started out slowly. Kind of like there was a giant elephant in the room that no one wanted to talk about!
Most of the comments were from older locals who shared that they had grown up spearing on and around Cass and felt like something had been taken from them. Comments were made that one species of fish or one type of angler shouldn't be "more important" than another, and that one group of anglers shouldn't be able to decide what another group can do. They pointed out that muskies do exist ok in lakes where spearing is allowed, that spearers are not automatically "criminals" and that most of them have no intention of ever spearing a muskie. Most of these comments, and others along these lines, were presented reasonably and had some validity. My personal feeling was that most of the muskie guys felt these people made some good points that really didn't warrant any arguments against them. What I'm saying is I think most of the "muskie guys" were seeing these peoples' side of the fence and on the surface, would even have agreed with much of it!
BUT THEN....
The president of one of the Darkhouse Assn. chapters stood up and started spouting all of the same BS that we hear from them at EVERY one of the round-table and workshop meetings. -"Slot limits don't work, they don't help the fishery. All slot limits are is a "back door" tactic the DNR is using to stop spearing, blah-blah-blah. We oppose slot limits. The DNR favors the muskie guys, all they care about is muskie management, they're ignoring us. We can't work with the DNR at the round-tables because they don't want to talk about pike management-it's all muskies all the time." And on and on.
My feeling at this point was that all the muskie guys who were kind of sympathetic to the local spearers points, mentally parted ways completely with them at this point. The bottom line is the "muskie guys" are really "the WHOLE fishery ecosystem" guys. We care about a lot more than just the muskies. You CAN NOT truthfully claim to care about the resource or the fishery, and at the same time, fight against slot limits. Those two things just don't go together!
The Darkhouse Assn. fights slot limits everywhere, at every opportunity, and this guy made it a point to say they will continue to do so. They don't want to talk about pike management with the DNR -they simply want to spear whatever they want, whenever they want. Sorry, but that's NOT management!! There is NO resource that can be harvested in the same ways and at the same rates that they were 30, 40, or 50 years ago. They WILL NOT survive!
The Darkhouse guy even said that if people want to catch big pike they should just "go where they are". He thinks those people should just go to Canada. He even implied that since most of our MN lakes don't support big pike anymore, we should basically give up on trying to create or bring back the quality fisheries that were once here!!! He basically said since we've already wrecked our lakes, we might as well keep wrecking them, and anyone who wants big pike should go elsewhere!!!
The way I see things, a lot of the mentality among muskie guys that spearing should be banned, is starting to fade. Most guys would not fight against spearing if it were implemented in a way that showed an effort to improve the fishery. The CLIFS guys could have a shot at working WITH the muskie guys -not against them- IF they would make protection of the resource a central part of their agenda.
BUT, as long as spearing continues to take large pike at a dis-proportionately high rate, the muskie guys will NEVER give in and turn their backs on the destruction of the fishery. An example is the recently published study of lake Bemidji after 10 years of spearing. I don't have the exact numbers in from of me right now, but here's a pretty close summary. Average pike size went from around 5 pounds to somewhere around 2 pounds! And, while only around 6% of angling hours were spearing, spearing accounted for 51% of pike harvest by weight!!
The facts are out there, and removing most of the big pike from a lake has negative impacts that reach FAR beyond the pike themselves. The resulting change in the pike population size structure and abundance negatively impacts the ENTIRE food chain. While these Darkhouse guys and anti-muskies guys spread lies that large predators throw the balance of a lake out of whack, the truth -supported by science- is that most of our lakes NEED large predators and HAD large predators before humans took them out, and a lack of those large fish is what actually throws the lakes' balance out of whack.
Another perception of mine is that among the "Average Joe" spearer, including the locals present at this meeting, the mentality that muskies are bad and should be killed is fading. This is great and could open the door to compromise. BUT, while they might make statements to the contrary, the Darkhouse Assn. stance is truthfully ANTI-muskie. They fight us every step of the way.
There were also Darkhouse guys at the meeting making anti-muskie statements among themselves.
At this point, the CLIFS organization appears to intend on joining forces with the Darkhouse Ass. This will put them in position AGAINST us in the "muskie community" on both pike management AND muskie management.
I've also heard rumors that they are planning to actively promote an anti-muskie and/or anti-Muskies Inc. campaign. These guys are not going to go away easily, but if this last part is true, I think they are going to squander any chance of compromise, and will cause A LOT of anglers to turn against them.
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Rank: Pike
Groups: Member
Joined: 2/7/2010
Posts: 6
Points: 18
Location: Pequot Lakes, MN
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Aaron, great recap of the meeting. I will just add one thing and this ties into the last point you made. After the majority of people were gone, one of the guys there invited/encouraged us to come back for their meeting next month because they will be showing a video that shows the problems that muskies cause. This came from one of the guys that ran the meeting, and who I believe is the President of the Darkhouse Association in the Bemidji/Cass Lake area.
My first question to this would be WHY? What do muskies, good or bad, have to do with CLIFS and what they are trying to pursue here? What is the point of showing a bunch of spear fishermen (who want to lift a spearing on a muskie lake) a video that portays muskies as a bad thing? What could they possibly be trying to accomplish with this and what does it have to do with northern pike spearing? My personal opinion is that if they do this it is the worst possible thing they could do for their cause.
Many of them say the right things (and DO the right things). But something like this is....I don't even know what to call it. But this is the one thing that I went away upset about. Everything else that was said are things that I have heard many times before and was expecting. But this one...again, why? I believe the video they're talking about is the Monster Quest show that was on the History Channel. I haven't seen it myself. But from everything I've heard the way they portray muskies is anything but reality. When someone essentially blew the viedo off as a bunch of crap the immediate reply back was, "Why was it on TV then?" Wow!!! So....they aren't willing to look at actual studies and data from the very lakes they want to spear...but are willing to look at Monster Quest and buy it hook, line and sinker?
I keep asking myself, why show a video like that? I'm trying to come up with an answer other than the one going through my head and I can't come up with anything. Tell spear fishermen that muskies are bad. Now when this spear fishermen sees a muskie swim through their hole, will they be thinking "I remember that video. We don't want muskies in this lake. Maybe I should stick it...."? Is this what they want their fellow spear fishermen to be thinking? I sure hope not. But I can't think of what purpose showing a video like that would serve at a meeting about lifting a spearing ban on northern pike.
Aaron
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 2/10/2009
Posts: 125
Points: 375
Location: Stillwater
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I'm really looking forward to seeing how the general public reacts to this anti-musky presentation. I just can't see people buying into it and I don't think it's going to go over very well, everyone is going to realize pretty quick that the DA agenda is not that of your average darkhouse spearer or fisherman and once they're exposed there'll be no going back.
Despite all the banter and chatter on the message boards, websites and newspapers, I do think the masses are coming closer together, if no other way than by learning more about the other side.
I heard a lot of positive things from the guys who were at the meeting and I think the Aarons and others who were present represented us very well, so thanks to everyone who made the trip and thanks for the update.
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Rank: Pike
Groups: Member
Joined: 2/7/2010
Posts: 6
Points: 18
Location: Pequot Lakes, MN
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I had an email forwarded to me tonight regarding the bill getting a hearing on Monday. And the following is from John Underhill in the last hour.
Well everyone I wish I could say we had some time to wait to make the calls and send the e-mails on Cass but a Senate Hearing is set for Monday, obviously we have not been heard or taken seriously, despite the outcry, despite the science, in spite of the incredible natural fishery Cass has offered us, Senator Olsen is moving forward with her Bill to damage one of Minnesotas greatest natural resources under the manipulation of a few that have convinced her that this will be an economic boost by renting Darkhouses. In return they stand to lose Muskie anglers, I suppose this to them is acceptable. If this lake is lost to legislation without regard to the history and the facts showing how much poaching was occurring, you will be seeing legalized spearing of Muskies possibly within a year or maybe even this year who’s to say, I have heard Darkhouse hierarchy comment and raise Michigan up above Minnesota stating “They can spear Muskies in Michigan” in response to Muskie management, these same people have publically said “If you allow us to spear Muskies you can stock all the lakes you want”. Now they have a hearing set for this Monday at 12:30 PM we need as many e-mails as we can get to Senator Olson, Skogen, Pariseau and Chaudhary in regards to this, its time to act, show up at the hearing if you can, don’t be afraid to speak out against this. This Piece of crap SF 2484 needs to be tossed in the garbage where it belongs, call now, e-mail now; don’t wait for Monday don’t wait for someone else to do it for you the fish need your voice. Send this e-mail to everyone on your Chapters list and to everyone you know that fishes Muskies in MN or cares about these fish. Call or write now; NO SPEARING ON CASS LAKE. Senator Satveer S. Chaudhary: 651.296.4334 sen.satveer.chaudhary@senate.mnSenator Mary A. Olson: 651.296.4913 sen.mary.olson@senate.mnSenator Dan Skogen: 651.296.5655 sen.dan.skogen@senate.mnSenator Pat Pariseau: 651.296.5252 sen.pat.pariseau@senate.mnMonday, March 1, 2010 - 12:30 PM Committee on Environment and Natural Resources Chair: Sen. Satveer S. Chaudhary 12:30 p.m. Room 107 Capitol More items may be added Agenda:S.F. 2484-Olson, M.: Cass Lake taking fish by spearing rulemaking requirement.
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/19/2009
Posts: 117
Points: 160
Location: the lake
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The time to act in NOW!
This no longer has anything to do with the Cass Lake Chamber or the polls mentioned in the beginning of this thread. The people to contact are listed in awh's last post.
To answer Aaron's question of "WHY?"
John has been saying this for a long time, and I've learned first hand that it is true. These people are full of HATE!
NOT your average spearer, but the people leading the Darkhouse Assc. and all of their followers who are working on their behalf.
It is much easier to continue spreading lies, anger, and hate than it is to look at yourself and admit that the things you are doing are wrong. The CLIFS organization appears to be joining in with this mentality and working to continue the cycle of hate towards muskies. The ONLY reason they could have to promote this anti-muskie mentality is to further separate spear fishermen from us, hoping the average spearer will accept this anti-muskie mentality BEFORE they have a chance to hear the truth and get the facts from us. When the average angler or spearer sees the facts, studies, and truths about muskies, they begin to realize that us "muskie guys" really aren't so bad, and we really do care about the whole fishery. Using a little reasoning and common sense, they may begin to turn -not against spearing in general- but against the Darkhouse Assc. leaders and their negative, destructive agendas. The only way these guys can ignore the facts and continue with these agendas is to try to turn the masses against us.
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/19/2009
Posts: 117
Points: 160
Location: the lake
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I believe that the hearing on Monday is open to the public. I think you are also allowed the opportunity to make a brief statement in front of the panel about how you feel. It would probably be a good idea for anyone available to be there. I don't have specific details on where/when, but I could find out from John. Call me, or him, if you're interested.
One thing I think I've left out is this: Besides Cass Lake holding one of MN's few remaining healthy populations of large northern pike, the DNR determined that during the spearing ban, the muskie population in Cass improved at a rate greater than other comparable lakes in the area where spearing was allowed. After taking into consideration all factors, they felt this showed that muskies ARE still being speared on those lakes.
Keep in mind, Cass is NOT, and never was, stocked with muskies. It is completely self-sustained. It is one of the very few lakes that hold an original, pure genetic strain of MN muskies.
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 1/23/2009
Posts: 88
Points: -51
Location: home
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I sent my five emails out - I hope everyone voiced there views. the meeting is Monday at noon.
Ron
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/19/2009
Posts: 117
Points: 160
Location: the lake
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I went to the Senate hearing on Monday. I chose not to testify, and just listened. Though this was the biggest, most time consuming item for the day, time was kept short by other agenda items. Several others testified against the bill.
The Darkhouse Assc. and a few members of the CLIFS organization testified in favor of it.
I think it was evident that Sen.Mary Olson, who wrote the bill, and the others in favor of it, did not have the facts and science on their side. I don't believe Mary Olson is very informed at all, as far as biology is concerned.
Senator Satveer Chaudhary is the Chairman of the Senate's Environment and Nat. Resources Committee. He seemed to care very little about the complex biology of this unique lake, or how the DNR feels about it. In fact, when the DNR got a chance to state their position(which is against lifting the ban) Chaudhary barely gave them the time to say anything. Chaudhary feels it is his place to go over the DNR if he sees fit, and in this case, he thinks he can find a way to keep both sides happy without regard for biology.
He seemed to ignore the damage that could be done to the pike population, and thinks that if he opens Cass to spearing, and starts stocking muskies there to offset the loss by illegal spearing of muskies, then both sides should be happy.
The reality is that Cass is one of the few lakes in the entire state that is self-sustaining. -For muskies, walleyes, pike, EVERYTHING!!
It is a healthy fishery, with the right balance to maintain itself without stocking.
Spearing has been shown to remove a dis-proportionately high number of the biggest pike in a lake -that's my only real problem with spearing.
If that occurs in Cass, the balance will be lost. The dynamics of the pike population will change. Not only will the large pike that are in Cass(very rare these days in MN) be lost, but the rest of the food chain will be impacted, including the walleyes and muskies.
Also, since muskies have never been stocked, Cass has a very unique, pure genetic strain. Studies on growth rates and life span have found that Cass Lake ranks among the best in the world for maximum possible size of muskies! Stocking muskies would not only cost thousands of dollars in a lake that doesn't need it, it would also change the genetic make-up of the muskies in the lake.
Besides, you can't take out big fish and think that stocking will replace them.
This is a very special lake that deserves special protection. There are so few lakes that can sustain such outstanding fisheries on their own, the way Cass does. Why risk changing it?
The only way I could see a compromise would be to put a very strict, protective slot limit on the pike in Cass, to preserve what makes it special. But, that brings us right back to the whole point of why they want Cass. They fight slot limits at all costs, because their true goal is to target the big fish in Cass.
The committee decided not to make an immediate decision on this bill. They are going to look at it further, and have another hearing. I believe it will go through a hearing process in the House as well.
In the meantime, we will look into getting facts to more of the politicians that are involved, so they can make their decision based, at least in part, on science.
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 1/28/2009
Posts: 30
Points: 90
Location: St. Cloud
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Aaron,
Well stated. Thanks for staying on top of this issue and keeping us informed.
Dave
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/19/2009
Posts: 117
Points: 160
Location: the lake
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In addition to the Senate hearings, this is going to a House of Reps. hearing tomorrow. This is a different group of politicians that need to hear from us. Please call or e-mail them from the list below. Phone calls are more generally more meaningful than e-mails. House of Representatives -Game, Fish, and Forestry Committee Bill HF-3227 by John Persell to open Cass Lake to spearing David Dill (chair) 651-296-2190 e-mail: rep.david.dill@house.mnBrita Sailer (vice chair) 651-296-4265 e-mail: rep.brita.sailer@house.mnTony Cornish (lead minority member) 651-296-4240 rep.tony.cornish@house.mnAndrew Falk 651-296-4228 rep.andrew.falk@house.mnTom Hackbarth 651-296-2439 rep.tom.hackbarth@house.mnRick Hansen 651-296-6828 rep.rick.hansen@house.mnDenny McNamara 651-296-3135 rep.denny.mcnamara@house.mnMark Murdock 651-296-4293 rep.mark.murdock@house.mnJohn Persell 651-296-5516 rep.john.persell@house.mnCy Thao 651-296-5158 rep.cy.thao@house.mnPaul Thissen 651-296-5375 rep.paul.thissen@house.mn Please be polite. This not the place for anger or threatening remarks. Use common sense, logic, and facts. If possible, make your calls and send your e-mails before 4:00 pm tomorrow. That will put your thoughts in their heads before the first hearing tomorrow. If you don't make it by 4:00, send them anyway, though! -Sorry for the late notice
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Rank: Big Muskie
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/19/2009
Posts: 117
Points: 160
Location: the lake
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The House Bill has been moved to the Environmental Policy and Insight Committee. In addition to these previous Reps that are on both of these committees, Paul T., John P., Denny M., Tony C., David D., Andrew F., and Tom H. -here are the Representatives to contact on this committee: Committee Chair: Kent Eken 651-296-9918 Vice Chair: Paul Gardner 651-296-2907 Paul Anderson Karla Bigham Steve Drazkowski Al Juhnke Jenifer Loon Phil Sterner Lean Wagenius like the last ones, the e-mail form is rep.firstname.lastname@house.mnexample: rep.kent.eken@house.mn
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